Mark

What I’m talking about isn’t an abolishment of the position of deacon entirely or elder/pastor at all. I would suggest that deacon is not needed and even hurtful in some circumstances. It seems pretty clear to me that the position of deacon was assigned out of need for improving the service to widows who were getting lost in the mix and they were given specific responsibility to fix that. The appointment highlighted a cultural hole. The people who made up the church had a cultural blindness to widows or their simply were too many of them and so neglected to serve them effectively. This necessitated the need of a more systematic approach and so they appointed people to take this responsibility.

Acts 6 is what I’m referring to: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 6:1-7

My point in all that is a church can exist biblically without a deacon role existing.

On the position of Elder, I think we’re probably developing a very similar argument. I also think the CEO Pastor is a less than ideal model. I’ve personally seen such a role be the undoing of the man and the church. I expect we’d agree that the role of pastor is synonymous with elder in many ways. I’d suggest that a small group of Christians organize to fulfill the purposes of the body (in other words, a church) would have at least a couple guys serving in this role and preferably none with over-riding veto power. I contend that the church as a whole (especially the group of elders) needs to be on board with a direction or decision or the health of the church is at question.

All that seems to get back to Bob’s point. The church as currently structured in the USA is a mess. The models all three of us are talking about recognizes a top-heavy, overly bureaucratic structure that lacks life.

My contention is that none of that will change unless the hearts of the people who hold it in place changes. A desire to recognize the ineffectiveness and to make the bold decisions that can allow improved effectiveness is the core problem that got us here in the first place. Therefore it isn’t the structure that is at fault, it’s the hearts and minds of the people.

Further, I’d suggest church with a truly servant heart can be greatly affective despite the lack of reform of structure. They’ll just find ways around their mess rather than fixing it. I think this is common in some of the better churches I’ve seen.

This steps into yet another viewpoint I have. The Christian bubble has lost many great minds to the workforce. Consequently, the great minds that understand organization and structure and systems have been allowed to spend all their time in secular pursuits. The same seems to have happened in the arts. These tools aren’t available to us because we’ve lost them. Movement seems to be underway, especially in the arts, to regain some of this capability, but we are still a long way from it. The discontent this discussion grows out of seems to be proof to me that God is at work healing these parts of our body.

Bob, I’m glad you appreciate it. I’d appreciate having you disagree with me if you feel it’s worth your effort. It sounds like you’ve probably had this discussion before so it may not be. I know you to be thoughtful and I certainly see the need for a thoughtful sharpening (or complete revolution) of my perspective.

Josiah :

Ryan, isn’t in the role of everyone in a church to do what you described for Elders and particularly deacons? American Christians have done a lot of dangerous out-sourcing of their responsibilities. I’m not suggesting these roles are evil, but I am suggesting they might actually get in the way of true heart-felt service in some environments. “I’m sure the elders/deacons are aware of it” is a dangerous refrain.

Oh, certainly, which is why our elders equip the saints for the work of ministry (cf. Eph 4) and spur us on toward every member mercy. That doesn’t change the fact that the NT describes the qualifications and appointments of elders and deacons, though. For example, you can find specific instruction in the Epistles regarding respecting and submitting to elders, their tasks, and rewards, and I don’t believe what was intended was for people to just assume it was everyone’s job so we don’t need the specialist. I think it is everyone’s job, but we still set apart / anoint / etc. the specialists. The best part, God designed it to work out in our favor:

“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account, so that they can do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” Hb. 13:17 HCSB

Mind you, I don’t have in mind here a typical CEO pastor / “I’m sure the _whoever_ is aware of it” church model that your comment might assume. I disagree with the outsourcing of Christian responsibilities in the church as much as I assume you do.

I have to take issue with Systematic Faith, though. Perhaps I’m missing the boat, but I fail to understand how some small groups are nothing more than manufactured friendships and have virtually nothing to do with The Bible or Jesus Christ while others, the ones that meet and study and pray with fellow believers, are the one true church.

As someone who has nearly always self-identified with some fashion of church role (volunteer, leader, employee, rank and file parishioner), I certainly understand the frustration which comes with the legalism, hypocrisy, and bureaucracy which exists at some level in every fellowship.

Furthermore, I don’t believe every believer has to attend church. It is clear that ministry does not need to funneled through an organized structure. If you find a place where you can contribute and receive from, even if that’s apart from an systematized structure, more power to you! However, I don’t think the root of the issue lies at the organizational level. We are all sinners. I bring my sin into my marriage, parenting, business dealings, social situations, and yes, even to church. My church, and every other one, is made up of other sinners who are doing the same thing.

If you’re working within the broken system. Great. If you’re ministering on your own, terrific. But, please don’t continue to attend a systematic church without putting much stock in it. Others will easily identify this and the cycle of bitterness will continue.

“virtually nothing to do with The Bible or Jesus Christ.”

It’s the whole baby with the bathwater thing that one of the reviews for Pagan Christianity mentioned. I’m not saying you personally need to find a church that’s doing these and tough it out (although if you came to Louisville, I could recommend a sister church I think you’d feel at home in – http://www.sojournchurch.com – you might wanna check out their music at – http://www.myspace.com/sojournrecords – I dig it). However, I think you may need to balance your generalizations and at least accept a third category beyond Old & Dead vs. Entertainment.

I find myself in this third category (don’t know what to name it) of a church that meets in cooperation under the gospel, for the purpose of mutual encouragement/edification, speaking the truth in love to one another, and “every member mercy”, that loves the Word, worship together around the cross, biblical theology, sacrificial service, and caring for the least of these. In other words, a church that is by no means perfect or free from the influence of the Western church model but is still full of people meeting together and doing things that have a lot to do with the Bible and Jesus Christ.

Your post reminds me not to take any of these things for granted and not to be silent in my desire to see us growing in greater faithfulness to the Lord as we do church together. : )

Then comes the folks who seem to think debating the mechanics of “church” is the same as decrying central doctrines as heretical. I’m confused by the seemingly well entrenched perspective that changing mechanics and methods is the equivalent of changing our theology. I’ve come to realize that these aren’t necessarily from the “senior saints” program of the church. It is more heavy up that way, but far from exclusive.

At the same time, you can’t be rid of mechanics entirely in any environment where you have multiple people involved. As we grow on the path of sanctification, I’d hope that the politics would lesson and a unity of perspective and purpose would grow as we grew closer to God, but our own sinfulness. Then, add to that the goal of helping people see what God has done for them and their need to grow and you increase the need for some rules and suddenly you have structure and hierarchy. That pretty much embodies the reason I haven’t, despite much temptation, gone fully the direction you describe. (Full Disclosure, It has more to do with my wife calling me out on it and showing me things like that.)

I’ve begun to see the root of the problem is with the people. The system is simply built on the flawed foundation of humanity. Changing the system isn’t the hard part. It’s changing the people that is the hard part. The people really matter, everything else is facilitating and reflecting their hearts. Flawed systems are a reflection of flawed, blind hearts.

At this point I contend that this has always been a problem in the church. People have always been a mess. They have no hope without God and seem to forget that this isn’t a one time action. Revelation 2 speaks of seven churches who had problems that boil down to people being a wreck.

I’m amazed with how little focus the church has on applying our faith. When I think back on growing up in the church I expect I could boil down directly applicable the teaching on sanctification to Read your Bible, Pray every day and you will grow, grow, grow. We don’t know what it means to do this together. Accountability structures I’ve been involved in have been exercises in awkwardness. I have friends who are involved in “organic” churches that are getting this and are trying to work out what it means. I’d relish the opportunity to be involved in a local group for that purpose.

Oddly, I’ve seen Linux User Groups that embody what I envision for the ideal church more fully than most churches I’ve been around. They have a community working in unity towards a goal and effectively train up new people without needless weight and organizational cruft. They also tend to have a stronger emphasis on evangelism.

You say something here I think I take for granted a bit, but at the same time am SO thankful for. In the most non-egostistic way possible, I think you’re right: My faith is strong enough to do this where some may not be. This isn’t my doing, but Gods…he’s blessed me with a faith and personality that can stand on it’s own without support of the church. Some folks might not be able to, and to be honest, I have compassion for them because they’ll be tied to the church if they want to survive. This is a good argument for letting these churches die slowly, giving people time to adjust.

I look forward to bolder living in this way now…living outside the church and with other believers.

This is something that many people are struggling with these days, including myself. The question is, do you try and change the church from within or ditch it?

There are a lot of people out there who are angry with the way the church has treated it’s members. Then there are those who think the church isn’t systematic enough.

However, I think this is a natural tendency of man. We crave order. If we don’t have a set of rules to follow then we feel lost. We don’t know if what we’re doing is “right” or “wrong”. Being a Christian anarchist seems antithetical to everything we know about “The Church” in the U.S.

Personally, I don’t feel like my walk with Christ is strong enough to make such a change, to just leave the Church. Maybe I’ve become co-dependent on it, maybe I’m really not as strong in my faith as I’d like to believe. Whatever the case, I applaud your boldness and confidence in your walk with Christ.

I like your compromise. Continue to attend for the sake of fellowship but maintain that relationship and walk on your own, rocking the boat along the way. Maybe someone will get their feet wet and actually start walking on the water towards Jesus instead of staying in the boat like a frightened child.

BTW, you may want to give a listen to the Beyond the Box Podcast – http://www.beyondtheboxpodcast

Cheers,

John