If there was a church as you describe then i would definitely come along. i don't like the hypocrisy and judgement that comes from a lot of congregations. I'm always wary when people or sects/faiths promote an 'I'm ok, I'm saved… now it's my job to save you'. God wants every single person to know that they're loved (Romans 5v8), so it infuriates me when people attempt to preach a different message about God: One of intolerance and of unchanging attitude. Jesus Christ didn't say or do the things to keep himself popular with the establishment, however the way he lived, and promoted self-awareness as opposed to judging others (Matthew 7v 1-5) is an inspiration. Each and every one of us is accountable for what we've done, in light of what we know, under varying circumstances. Only God, and God alone can judge my motives and look into my heart, any day of the week and not just a Sunday morning.

In my mind, there’s this very clear dividing line between the church and The Church (note the caps, if you get my drift). I don’t think many other people see the distinction as clearly as I always do, but to me there’s a massive difference today, in America, in 2010, between the local church and The Church (ie. the worldwide body of Jesus followers). This entire post is about the local church (as basically all of my posts are), it’s not about The Church in a kingdom sense.

So, that being explained, I agree with you 1000%. If we give up meeting together as Christians (in the worldwide Church sense) then we’re disobeying God and we’re living unhealthily.

Conversely, though, I’ve come to believe that meeting together at a scheduled time in a mortgaged building led by a salaried staff under 501c3 status is not required by God and, in many ways today, is unhealthy and misleading. (when I find a local church that doesn’t reflect this, I’ll give it a shot)

So, I don’t think we disagree on the point you bring up. Thanks for sharing!

The picture that comes to mind is a field of fireflies. When you catch one or two fireflies, stick them in a jar and bring them inside, they blink occasionally and look pretty, but if you let them go into a field of other fireflies, they blink and glow along with the rest in a beautiful display of God’s creation and goodness. Their beauty is magnified through the presence of others. I feel like God in me is encouraged more fully through His glory in others around me, much like the fireflies.

Even our God is a triune God-ship and created woman for man because it wasn’t good to be alone, even though God walked in the Garden of Eden with him. It seems to me it is important to God to be with us and for us to be with others.

So, now that I’ve built up a big argument, do I totally misunderstand you?

——————
Here’s context for the verse I referred to.
Heb 10:24,25 – “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”

But here’s where I end up after acknowledging all of that: Am I going to let a local church and a bunch of fellow humans ruin the Perfect Christ for me? If Jesus was standing here talking to us, He’d tell you the truth about swearing in the bible. He’d be open about the problems with modern Christianity. And, yes, he’d be hanging around with ‘those people’, not with the overly pious in our churches.

So if I could give any advice from my experience it’s this: Call the church and it’s people what it is: broken. And realize that they don’t speak for God in His perfect voice. The local church isn’t God and neither is any pastor or pope. As long as we’re following Christ and His perfect love, we can take everyone else with a healthy grain of salt (or doubt, or even questionable respect).

You’re not alone in this Jess…we just have to be stronger and see Christ for who he really is despite all the smoke and mirrors that are put in lambs clothing.

I could go into a whole discussion about the difficulty in translating things and how important it is to get back to the original languages, etc. but that’s not what this discussion is about. =0)

Where is Jesus?
Well I know where I would like to see him.

I would like to see him in the garden
I would like to see him talking to “those people”
I would like to see him at a gay club
I would like to see him involved in a real conversation with someone who was not a christian. NOT TO COVERT THEM, just to love them.

Bob, you and Linda are amazing. Thank you for continuing to be people that I look up to. I know that if it was not for you two and your example of questioning “the truth” and loving everyone, I would not ever consider christ-loving.

love from the canyon
J. Mamma

As Liz stated, this is a pretty intense set of arguments to make, and it’s refreshing to see that you’re at least aware that these feelings may be coming from a place without very positive intentions. Although, I think that you’re intentions certainly aren’t questionable here.

I can definitely get behind many of the thoughts expressed here. Most poignantly, the idea that we as Christians don’t know how to live the life Christ calls us to outside of the established church. When you consider that many Christians’ idea of evangelism as leaving tracts in bathroom stalls or missions as paying some money to a missionary to travel to a country they’ve never heard of, it’s certainly not far off. Even for someone who shares your thinking, it’s hard for me even to think of ways to increase my personal witness without leaning on the church.

However, I will say that you can take comfort in the fact that many leaders in the “establishment” share your concerns. Often times in talking with pastors and leaders, they’re increasingly frustrated with the fact that congregations expect more and more of the work in the Kingdom to be done by the pastors, as if “that’s why we called them.” They’ve set aside their own responsibilities in Jesus’ commission, even within their own families, and delegated those things to the church (i.e. my role in passing the faith on to my children is to see that they go to church or parochial school so that they can teach it to them).

However, there is a level of extreme here that I think is a bit unwarranted. For example, how does “you can’t save yourself” equate to being anti-establishment? Maybe I’m missing something here. Perhaps you can expand that idea.

As you said, the argument that Jesus was anti-establishment isn’t a new one. And I see where people get that from. Jesus IS radical, to be sure, but radical does not necessarily mean anti-establishment. Realize that Jesus was born and raised in the establishment (Luke 2 – Jesus is presented to the priests in the temple and later explains to his parents that he needs to be in his father’s house) and there are no passages that I’m aware of that set Jesus in ANY form of opposition to the established church. Understanding a little about the times of Jesus, it’s likely that he was in religious instruction for much of his life. Additionally, Jesus was regarded as a qualified Rabbi by the others in the establishment. They spoke to him as such in their recorded interactions. Also, he chose and called followers, teaching them in the same way that the other established rabbi did. He taught on the mountainsides, yes, but also often in the synagogues and the temple. How could someone who is fundamentally anti-establishment live and work so well within it?

There are, however, MANY passages in which Jesus sets himself in opposition to the teachings and practices of those IN the established church. He doesn’t rebuke the establishment, he rebukes the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the teachers and the scribes. Not for being Pharisees, Sadducees, teachers, and scribes, but for teaching and supporting the kinds of things they did. He didn’t upend tables in the temple because tables, temples, merchants, etc. are evil, but because they were missing the point, and making a mockery of the temple that God himself set up. You forget that God called and set apart the priests and set up the temple and ordered the sacrifices and the festivals.

The point isn’t the establishment itself, it’s how it’s treated, how it’s used. The establishment needs to remove itself from the roles that have been thrusted upon it and help get them back into the hands of the people. It should be working to teach, encourage, and inspire Christians on to reaching the broken, as you say, by being broken, and helping them to find the savior that heals all brokenness, brings about resurrection in the believer and a new life and a new creation.

Awesome stuff, though, here, Bob. TBH, I think the church needs more people like you in it that are focused on finding ways to break out of the establishmentarian shell…to find, nurture, and release that precious faith in the lives of individuals as well as communities.