In my mind, there’s this very clear dividing line between the church and The Church (note the caps, if you get my drift). I don’t think many other people see the distinction as clearly as I always do, but to me there’s a massive difference today, in America, in 2010, between the local church and The Church (ie. the worldwide body of Jesus followers). This entire post is about the local church (as basically all of my posts are), it’s not about The Church in a kingdom sense.

So, that being explained, I agree with you 1000%. If we give up meeting together as Christians (in the worldwide Church sense) then we’re disobeying God and we’re living unhealthily.

Conversely, though, I’ve come to believe that meeting together at a scheduled time in a mortgaged building led by a salaried staff under 501c3 status is not required by God and, in many ways today, is unhealthy and misleading. (when I find a local church that doesn’t reflect this, I’ll give it a shot)

So, I don’t think we disagree on the point you bring up. Thanks for sharing!

The picture that comes to mind is a field of fireflies. When you catch one or two fireflies, stick them in a jar and bring them inside, they blink occasionally and look pretty, but if you let them go into a field of other fireflies, they blink and glow along with the rest in a beautiful display of God’s creation and goodness. Their beauty is magnified through the presence of others. I feel like God in me is encouraged more fully through His glory in others around me, much like the fireflies.

Even our God is a triune God-ship and created woman for man because it wasn’t good to be alone, even though God walked in the Garden of Eden with him. It seems to me it is important to God to be with us and for us to be with others.

So, now that I’ve built up a big argument, do I totally misunderstand you?

——————
Here’s context for the verse I referred to.
Heb 10:24,25 – “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”

But here’s where I end up after acknowledging all of that: Am I going to let a local church and a bunch of fellow humans ruin the Perfect Christ for me? If Jesus was standing here talking to us, He’d tell you the truth about swearing in the bible. He’d be open about the problems with modern Christianity. And, yes, he’d be hanging around with ‘those people’, not with the overly pious in our churches.

So if I could give any advice from my experience it’s this: Call the church and it’s people what it is: broken. And realize that they don’t speak for God in His perfect voice. The local church isn’t God and neither is any pastor or pope. As long as we’re following Christ and His perfect love, we can take everyone else with a healthy grain of salt (or doubt, or even questionable respect).

You’re not alone in this Jess…we just have to be stronger and see Christ for who he really is despite all the smoke and mirrors that are put in lambs clothing.

I could go into a whole discussion about the difficulty in translating things and how important it is to get back to the original languages, etc. but that’s not what this discussion is about. =0)

Where is Jesus?
Well I know where I would like to see him.

I would like to see him in the garden
I would like to see him talking to “those people”
I would like to see him at a gay club
I would like to see him involved in a real conversation with someone who was not a christian. NOT TO COVERT THEM, just to love them.

Bob, you and Linda are amazing. Thank you for continuing to be people that I look up to. I know that if it was not for you two and your example of questioning “the truth” and loving everyone, I would not ever consider christ-loving.

love from the canyon
J. Mamma

As Liz stated, this is a pretty intense set of arguments to make, and it’s refreshing to see that you’re at least aware that these feelings may be coming from a place without very positive intentions. Although, I think that you’re intentions certainly aren’t questionable here.

I can definitely get behind many of the thoughts expressed here. Most poignantly, the idea that we as Christians don’t know how to live the life Christ calls us to outside of the established church. When you consider that many Christians’ idea of evangelism as leaving tracts in bathroom stalls or missions as paying some money to a missionary to travel to a country they’ve never heard of, it’s certainly not far off. Even for someone who shares your thinking, it’s hard for me even to think of ways to increase my personal witness without leaning on the church.

However, I will say that you can take comfort in the fact that many leaders in the “establishment” share your concerns. Often times in talking with pastors and leaders, they’re increasingly frustrated with the fact that congregations expect more and more of the work in the Kingdom to be done by the pastors, as if “that’s why we called them.” They’ve set aside their own responsibilities in Jesus’ commission, even within their own families, and delegated those things to the church (i.e. my role in passing the faith on to my children is to see that they go to church or parochial school so that they can teach it to them).

However, there is a level of extreme here that I think is a bit unwarranted. For example, how does “you can’t save yourself” equate to being anti-establishment? Maybe I’m missing something here. Perhaps you can expand that idea.

As you said, the argument that Jesus was anti-establishment isn’t a new one. And I see where people get that from. Jesus IS radical, to be sure, but radical does not necessarily mean anti-establishment. Realize that Jesus was born and raised in the establishment (Luke 2 – Jesus is presented to the priests in the temple and later explains to his parents that he needs to be in his father’s house) and there are no passages that I’m aware of that set Jesus in ANY form of opposition to the established church. Understanding a little about the times of Jesus, it’s likely that he was in religious instruction for much of his life. Additionally, Jesus was regarded as a qualified Rabbi by the others in the establishment. They spoke to him as such in their recorded interactions. Also, he chose and called followers, teaching them in the same way that the other established rabbi did. He taught on the mountainsides, yes, but also often in the synagogues and the temple. How could someone who is fundamentally anti-establishment live and work so well within it?

There are, however, MANY passages in which Jesus sets himself in opposition to the teachings and practices of those IN the established church. He doesn’t rebuke the establishment, he rebukes the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the teachers and the scribes. Not for being Pharisees, Sadducees, teachers, and scribes, but for teaching and supporting the kinds of things they did. He didn’t upend tables in the temple because tables, temples, merchants, etc. are evil, but because they were missing the point, and making a mockery of the temple that God himself set up. You forget that God called and set apart the priests and set up the temple and ordered the sacrifices and the festivals.

The point isn’t the establishment itself, it’s how it’s treated, how it’s used. The establishment needs to remove itself from the roles that have been thrusted upon it and help get them back into the hands of the people. It should be working to teach, encourage, and inspire Christians on to reaching the broken, as you say, by being broken, and helping them to find the savior that heals all brokenness, brings about resurrection in the believer and a new life and a new creation.

Awesome stuff, though, here, Bob. TBH, I think the church needs more people like you in it that are focused on finding ways to break out of the establishmentarian shell…to find, nurture, and release that precious faith in the lives of individuals as well as communities.

I was thinking about something similar today, about how i need to not pity people.

How when I help someone I don’t need to put them below me (internally ) but I need to understand I am like them, and I need help all the same, and I can only give because I have been given to myself (if thats not a tongue twister and makes sense)

It’s good to hear you have a heart for people. And interesting to see this side of your online presences,

and humm yoga I have done a little but nothing serious mostly just for working out… and I actually like running so I do that but its more solo.

It really does touch on an excellent study though… the thought that, in this life, the rubber hits the road when “life happens.” This is when the present value of one’s worldview is experienced. So, for e.g., when the Jehovah Witness get’s cancer, where does that works- based system get you?

However, this could just as easily be turned on the Christianity of evangelical protestantism… that if the inner emotional experience of the heart is what matters, if that is the core of one’s religion, where does that get you when you can no longer give assent to the confession of the faith because of Alzheimer’s?

I continue to find more and more comfort in my faith as something Christ did outside of me.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts Bob!

If just ‘what we did’ when life happened was the difference, then you’re right: it’s just another set of works. I probably should have said that we take that a step further and look at WHY we did what we did…that’s where the difference lies.

The “why we did it” is the mystical aspect of this discussion…because the answer is “we did it because we couldn’t ever do it…it’s the Healer doing it for us”

So, in the end: Good distinction Anthony: What I’m talking about here is the outward and visible difference between Christians and others…not the true difference between Christianity and other faiths.

Still trying to wrap my head around what I’ve just written here :)

However, your solution to the difference between religions seems to be interwoven with the problem. If what separates worldviews is what we do when “life happens” than is that not just another good work (which you did well to argue is not the essence of Christianity, though it is a necessary fruit of faith, albiet a fruit that is not specific to Christianity)? I assume when you argue the differences between religions you are speaking of an outward distinction. If you are talking about more than just and outward distinction then is my reaction to what happens to me in life the “core” of my faith. Is my salvation dependent upon what I do? What if I have no reaction or my reaction is the same as a non-believer, am I lost?

I think the difference in worldviews is more simple than that… either my sin, problems, and all my junk is forgiven and redeemed at the cross… or not. Either my name is written in heaven… or it’s not. That truth will be manifested differently in different people. But in the end, we are all broken people seeking to be healed and very much in need of healing – excellent point here Bob!

I’m actually hoping to do exactly what the post asks for and have a “respectful back-and-forth conversation.” Asking for additional responses on certain topics doesn’t automatically make things negative does it? Maybe I’m missing something.

To address your main question: If things weren’t as I believe them to be (with the food system or the president, specifically), would I want to know? My answer is: Absolutely!!

I have a feeling you probably aren’t someone who knows much of my past when you ask this. The reason is because I’ve always been someone who questions something, learns more about it, then is happy to change my views based on what I’ve learned. For example, I used to be a really hardcore, party line Republican. I was the guy with the 8 foot Bush sign in my front yard (seriously). The more I looked into what my politics were, the more I read and learned and discussed, the more I realized I was wrong (the specifics of why aren’t really important, at this point). So, I learned and I changed. It’s something I think I do very willingly and anyone who knows me in person will vouch for that (I think).

I’ve done the same thing with the food system, specifically. I used to think that food people were crazy, policital, hippies. Then I learned and I changed.

So, I agree with you that learning and opening up perspectives is a VERY important part of life and I think I model it pretty consistently.

I’ve learned over the years that for some reason (maybe because I’m so vocal), alot of people think they know who I am (in this case, I get the sense you think I’m a hard line liberal), but they’re almost always wrong. The folks who really know me know that I’m open to being wrong (after vigorous debate) and always am self-questioning.

Here’s to hoping you can get to know me well enough to see that! Thanks for your comments!

Even though we are about 180 degrees apart on just about every topic, I read (and enjoy) your opinions because I think it is very beneficial to us all to listen to opposing opinions and weigh what we believe, and why.

Not to be adversarial, but to dialog and weigh what we believe, I pose this question. If factory farms are not what you believe them to be (what you were told they are by Food, inc), would you want to know? If the president turns out not be not the next Jesus but the next Castro, would you want to know? Or would you be pretending to sleep? I am not trying to turn this into a political discussion. I only bring that up because one’s political views is an example of where people on both sides choose to be willingly ignorant. These questions are meant to be food for thought and self-evaluation, not the beginning of a debate. In a sense, I’m agreeing with your point in the last few paragraphs. If it seems like I missed your overall point, I apologize. I don’t think I did.

Finally, if it seems like I’m only disagreeing, let me applaud you on your last blog post, The Price We Pay. That was so thought provoking that I insisted that my wife read it, too.

Bob, you’ve caught me off guard. I hadn’t put that all together.

Thanks!

Second, note that none of the use of animals you mention here has to do with eating it…a side point, but worth noticing.

So, i still call the eating of meat ‘less than ideal’ (since it wasn’t part of Gods original plan)…whether sacrificing animals or using them for clothing (when they’ve been respected in life) is a completely other issue that I really have no comment on…

First: The “it’s easy and we don’t have time” tells me that we’re too busy. It tells me our lifestyle is what’s causing factory meat to flourish. Our refusal to slow down and do things ‘properly’ (as my dad used to say) is causing this horrible practice to flourish. So what’s the answer? Slow the hell down. If we don’t, factory meat will continue to win. Are you really ok with them having your family right where they want you? (ie. damn the man)

Second, the expensive issue: Anything you read about this issue points out that cheap meat isn’t actually cheap. You’re paying for it, just not at the checkout. There’s too much to say in this area, but next time you pay too much in taxes, blame cheap meat. Next time you get sick and doctor bills are higher than they were last time…blame cheap meat. You ARE paying for expensive meat…you just don’t know it. And that doesn’t stop until we ALL stop paying a false-price for what we consume.

So, in general, our culture has given power to cheap meat. And the more you continue eating it because it’s ‘easy’ and ‘cheap’ the more you can be sure that our kids will grow up in a world where animals are treated as raw materials.

However, two points here: First, I could argue that buying factory meat IS absolutely contributing to human suffering. Read about meat packing workers and look at the statistics. It’s an immigration issue. It’s a ‘needless endangerment’ issue. It’s a treating people like less-than-human issue. So, eating factory meat isn’t just an animal issue, for starters.

Second, how many human-suffering issues do YOU take part in supporting? Probably not too many (forgetting point #1 for a minute). But, how many animal-suffering issues do you take part in? Every time you eat factory meat, you are part of the problem. Therefore, you can do something immediate every day to withdraw yourself from taking part.

And not only CAN you…but its really really REALLY easy. Just stop eating factory meat. How hard is that? In the scheme of things, it’s extremely simple. Oh, and by the way, when you do that…you’re withdrawling from the human-suffering issue in #1 as well.

So, yes clean water and medicine are more imporant. But the choice to not support factories doesn’t prevent you from supporting other issues as well…it’s not animals or humans. You can do both, and you can start with the animal issue at your next meal.